Back in my teaching days I was called a communist by some students (who had just come from an economics class and they had been discussing trade unions) - yes I replied, and proudly so… but only in comparison to the median voter. The test I apply to politicians is always: ‘Are they in it for themselves or the greater good?’ Currently it is too easy to spot the difference
well said Keith...............the 'we' description of our brand of socialism resonates with why my gut feeling has always driven my political choices.......some people just don't seem to resonate with that, in family and at the polling booth.
Absolutely right Bryan. I have the misfortune of living near some right wing shouters, which have a lot more than most in our community, and certainly more than sufficient to live comfortably. I think they have a deep fear of losing something they haven't even really identified. I usually try to respond politely, but I think it's time to get a bit more blunt. They might never speak to me again, but that would be a bonus.
Why do so many people frame our politics as though there are only two choices to vote for? There are also Green Party and te Paati Maaori, both of whom are much more socialist than Labour. At the moment they have more mps than Act and NZ First, and, were more people like yourself to take their policies seriously, they could be an even stronger element of government. I know personally that their mps are not there to prop up the system or to enrich themselves but to change it towards a "we" society. Moreover, one that that takes care of the environment so that there can be a future. MMP has made that possible.
It's true what you say about the Green Party and I have actually encouraged people to give their party vote to Greens in the past Janine because their manifesto is much more WE society driven , however they have not proved effective in shifting Labour, with whom they have been in coalition, away from neoliberalism .Why ?
that's because it's unpopular and considered far-left, Bryan. They are holding a middle-ground to the left. Communism it seems, sits on both sides of the spectrum, alt-right and alt-left. Te Ao Maori was seen as communistic by the earlier settlers in it's approach. The chief in those days was considered the defacto owner of the lands and distributed lands accordingly eg for whanau papakainga and gardens etc. Yet the chief didn't "own" the lands. The responsibility of manaakitanga and tiakitanga rested with the whanau collectively. Now that will be considered communism at it's best.
You make an interesting point Ipu. However it may be a question of horse trading at Coalition time because when you look at the amount of clout ACT with its very small percentage of the vote has managed to weild with National in the current coalition, I do wonder whether the Green leadership needs to look at it's bargaining strategies at Coalition time in pushing its economic agenda. That said, Labour had a total mandate in 2020 and didn't need the Greens so their bargaining power would have been low.
I agree with you absolutely Bryan, they haven't gone far enough. I also agree with your analysis of the Labour party and I think the Maori party is a wee bit over the top, even for me. But I do understand their strategies as they have a huge mountain to climb for they have to walk the fine line. They don't want to be there but they have to be. Somewhere, somehow they will all have to find the right balance. This coalition is totally out the gate, ACT and NZ1st is inciting hatred and National is loving it so they could stay out of the firing line and hide behind the coalition agreement. Democracy, such as it is, is on the line with that lot. Keep your investigative journalism going Bryan, it's opening up new narratives.
I voted Green when I lived on the Coromandel Peninsula I really liked Jeanette Fitzsimmonds & she got in there but since then I've always given labour the party vote because we're in a really right wing area & the Greens have got no show.
So true Janine, there seems to be a mental block when it comes to the Green Party. However Social, Environmental and Economic Justice is what we really need. Seems obvious to me.
Are the Moari Party holding to those values now? Certainly they weren't in the last National Coalition.
I occasionally torment my RW friends with comments like, you know the Greens do have some damned good ideas, esp around areas like, X, Y and Z , their faces contort and turn a funny colour and the usual reply is , You're not a bloody communist are you Gow ?
I am always amazed by how the word 'communist' is used, when what is being described in nothing communist at all. At a very basic level, Bryan descibing 'we' politics is a great basic way of describing Kiwi kind of socialism..............how americans ....which impacts NZ unfortunately...how Americans use 'communist' and 'socialist' is so ignorant of the real thing. It has always amazed me........having done pol studs papers with Barry Gustafson back in the day....
I think the “We” Society grew out of the failure of the “me” society governments during the last Great Depression in the 1930s - followed by the successful wartime government and then the mixed (regulated) capitalist/socialist society that experienced an extended period of economic growth and more evenly shared prosperity.
We lost the recipe with Muldoon and crazy dismantling by Douglas and Richardson.
Sadly, will it take another depression or a war for more enlightened leaders to emerge from the rubble?
Or could we do it by educating various generations about the lessons learnt from the past. If so how????
I think we need to start teaching Civics as a compulsory class from about the time students are aged 11 or 12 onwards which should incorporate a healthy dose of our history. I have been talking with a number of 20 year olds recent and I am amazed at what they don't know about The Treaty and development of our society.
It's true regarding the education of our history. I'm in my late 30s. I learned more about NZ history after I left school when I read various autobiographies, then when I was at school. History is so important.
At the common people maybe we have had we society but New Zealand has ruled by an us Feudal Imperialist class for its entire human inhabited history.
Feudal slavery was writ large I'm Maori history, converting to foreign bank Imperialism over the commons after the first point of continuous European contact in 1769.
In my own definition Imperialists are elites who rip off their own kind then use the proceeds of those crimes to spread their rip off crimes across borders.
It is Imperialism I believe us common people need to unite against.
Many years ago, the American electorate was persuaded that any form of socialism was full-blown communism, and they've never deviated from that view since. Further, in recent years they have persuaded many others around the world, including the right of centre voters of the NZ, that theirs is the 'true' way to view socialism. Meantime, their own right wing has lurched even further right, with the ultra extreme right now flirting with fascism. Sadly, these assumptions have now overflowed beyond the US borders to other countries who consider themselves aligned as part of 'the West'; a few even play with the fire of fascism. Those of us who have lived under the form of social welfare practised in NZ from the mid-1930s until 1984, know well that it can work well, as long as people understand it requires co-operation by the majority, preferably everyone, for the benefit of the majority, including those who now fall hopelessly through the cracks. Those cracks are now ever-widening chasms. Could we revert o that system? Yes, but it requires the will of the majority, and that obviously doesn't exist right now. Also, now the majority of our population have never lived under social welfare, have no idea how it works, and those in power are making absolutely certain that they never will know, or learn of, that earlier system. Was it perfect? No, it wasn't. No system is, but tweaking would have been a preferable option to throwing the entire system away, as was done under the false Labour Government of David Lange and Roger Douglas from 1984 to 1990, followed by a National Government in the 1990s, that had rediscovered its right-wing roots. NZ has languished in that state pretty ever since. Those who've benefitted from tax cuts and other 'gifts' from the public purse waxed lyrical about a 'rock economy', something that completely bypassed those on shrinking incomes, if they were fortunate enough to be in full employment at all! As wages have shrunk, and employment levels have fluctuated, so too the tax take goes up and down, mostly down, as the lowly paid are expected to support an economy where the rich are allowed to live virtually tax free, therefore not contributing at all. In my opinion, NZ has lurched unsteadily through the years ever since 1984.
The thing I've been reflecting on, is if the people not doing so well financially keep leaving (the ones who are more likely to think WE) and the immigrants who come in are a self selecting bunch who probably are relatively right wing, then will we ever go back to our roots?
Back in my teaching days I was called a communist by some students (who had just come from an economics class and they had been discussing trade unions) - yes I replied, and proudly so… but only in comparison to the median voter. The test I apply to politicians is always: ‘Are they in it for themselves or the greater good?’ Currently it is too easy to spot the difference
well said Keith...............the 'we' description of our brand of socialism resonates with why my gut feeling has always driven my political choices.......some people just don't seem to resonate with that, in family and at the polling booth.
I've been called that from when I was about 17 haha 😂 I've always been argumentative.
Absolutely right Bryan. I have the misfortune of living near some right wing shouters, which have a lot more than most in our community, and certainly more than sufficient to live comfortably. I think they have a deep fear of losing something they haven't even really identified. I usually try to respond politely, but I think it's time to get a bit more blunt. They might never speak to me again, but that would be a bonus.
Go Alan. Yes me too.
Why do so many people frame our politics as though there are only two choices to vote for? There are also Green Party and te Paati Maaori, both of whom are much more socialist than Labour. At the moment they have more mps than Act and NZ First, and, were more people like yourself to take their policies seriously, they could be an even stronger element of government. I know personally that their mps are not there to prop up the system or to enrich themselves but to change it towards a "we" society. Moreover, one that that takes care of the environment so that there can be a future. MMP has made that possible.
It's true what you say about the Green Party and I have actually encouraged people to give their party vote to Greens in the past Janine because their manifesto is much more WE society driven , however they have not proved effective in shifting Labour, with whom they have been in coalition, away from neoliberalism .Why ?
that's because it's unpopular and considered far-left, Bryan. They are holding a middle-ground to the left. Communism it seems, sits on both sides of the spectrum, alt-right and alt-left. Te Ao Maori was seen as communistic by the earlier settlers in it's approach. The chief in those days was considered the defacto owner of the lands and distributed lands accordingly eg for whanau papakainga and gardens etc. Yet the chief didn't "own" the lands. The responsibility of manaakitanga and tiakitanga rested with the whanau collectively. Now that will be considered communism at it's best.
You make an interesting point Ipu. However it may be a question of horse trading at Coalition time because when you look at the amount of clout ACT with its very small percentage of the vote has managed to weild with National in the current coalition, I do wonder whether the Green leadership needs to look at it's bargaining strategies at Coalition time in pushing its economic agenda. That said, Labour had a total mandate in 2020 and didn't need the Greens so their bargaining power would have been low.
I agree with you absolutely Bryan, they haven't gone far enough. I also agree with your analysis of the Labour party and I think the Maori party is a wee bit over the top, even for me. But I do understand their strategies as they have a huge mountain to climb for they have to walk the fine line. They don't want to be there but they have to be. Somewhere, somehow they will all have to find the right balance. This coalition is totally out the gate, ACT and NZ1st is inciting hatred and National is loving it so they could stay out of the firing line and hide behind the coalition agreement. Democracy, such as it is, is on the line with that lot. Keep your investigative journalism going Bryan, it's opening up new narratives.
thanks Ipu
Good question Bryan. Any ideas
?
I voted Green when I lived on the Coromandel Peninsula I really liked Jeanette Fitzsimmonds & she got in there but since then I've always given labour the party vote because we're in a really right wing area & the Greens have got no show.
I voted for one of these parties for this exact reason.
Can this awesome video be shared? Do you have a link for it?
You should be able to share it from this site Alice by pusing the share button - let me know if you can't. You could also try sharing this page link .
https://bryanbruce.substack.com/p/we-once-had-a-we-society
People need to join my Substack to see it but joining is also free.
So true Janine, there seems to be a mental block when it comes to the Green Party. However Social, Environmental and Economic Justice is what we really need. Seems obvious to me.
Are the Moari Party holding to those values now? Certainly they weren't in the last National Coalition.
Agree re your Green Party comment Bruce but please see my reply to Janine.
I occasionally torment my RW friends with comments like, you know the Greens do have some damned good ideas, esp around areas like, X, Y and Z , their faces contort and turn a funny colour and the usual reply is , You're not a bloody communist are you Gow ?
I am always amazed by how the word 'communist' is used, when what is being described in nothing communist at all. At a very basic level, Bryan descibing 'we' politics is a great basic way of describing Kiwi kind of socialism..............how americans ....which impacts NZ unfortunately...how Americans use 'communist' and 'socialist' is so ignorant of the real thing. It has always amazed me........having done pol studs papers with Barry Gustafson back in the day....
I think the “We” Society grew out of the failure of the “me” society governments during the last Great Depression in the 1930s - followed by the successful wartime government and then the mixed (regulated) capitalist/socialist society that experienced an extended period of economic growth and more evenly shared prosperity.
We lost the recipe with Muldoon and crazy dismantling by Douglas and Richardson.
Sadly, will it take another depression or a war for more enlightened leaders to emerge from the rubble?
Or could we do it by educating various generations about the lessons learnt from the past. If so how????
I think we need to start teaching Civics as a compulsory class from about the time students are aged 11 or 12 onwards which should incorporate a healthy dose of our history. I have been talking with a number of 20 year olds recent and I am amazed at what they don't know about The Treaty and development of our society.
Absolutely 💯
It's true regarding the education of our history. I'm in my late 30s. I learned more about NZ history after I left school when I read various autobiographies, then when I was at school. History is so important.
That's seems to be RWingers go to it so old I believe they only day that for lack of a decent argument.
Hi Bryan Bruce,
At the common people maybe we have had we society but New Zealand has ruled by an us Feudal Imperialist class for its entire human inhabited history.
Feudal slavery was writ large I'm Maori history, converting to foreign bank Imperialism over the commons after the first point of continuous European contact in 1769.
In my own definition Imperialists are elites who rip off their own kind then use the proceeds of those crimes to spread their rip off crimes across borders.
It is Imperialism I believe us common people need to unite against.
Many years ago, the American electorate was persuaded that any form of socialism was full-blown communism, and they've never deviated from that view since. Further, in recent years they have persuaded many others around the world, including the right of centre voters of the NZ, that theirs is the 'true' way to view socialism. Meantime, their own right wing has lurched even further right, with the ultra extreme right now flirting with fascism. Sadly, these assumptions have now overflowed beyond the US borders to other countries who consider themselves aligned as part of 'the West'; a few even play with the fire of fascism. Those of us who have lived under the form of social welfare practised in NZ from the mid-1930s until 1984, know well that it can work well, as long as people understand it requires co-operation by the majority, preferably everyone, for the benefit of the majority, including those who now fall hopelessly through the cracks. Those cracks are now ever-widening chasms. Could we revert o that system? Yes, but it requires the will of the majority, and that obviously doesn't exist right now. Also, now the majority of our population have never lived under social welfare, have no idea how it works, and those in power are making absolutely certain that they never will know, or learn of, that earlier system. Was it perfect? No, it wasn't. No system is, but tweaking would have been a preferable option to throwing the entire system away, as was done under the false Labour Government of David Lange and Roger Douglas from 1984 to 1990, followed by a National Government in the 1990s, that had rediscovered its right-wing roots. NZ has languished in that state pretty ever since. Those who've benefitted from tax cuts and other 'gifts' from the public purse waxed lyrical about a 'rock economy', something that completely bypassed those on shrinking incomes, if they were fortunate enough to be in full employment at all! As wages have shrunk, and employment levels have fluctuated, so too the tax take goes up and down, mostly down, as the lowly paid are expected to support an economy where the rich are allowed to live virtually tax free, therefore not contributing at all. In my opinion, NZ has lurched unsteadily through the years ever since 1984.
The thing I've been reflecting on, is if the people not doing so well financially keep leaving (the ones who are more likely to think WE) and the immigrants who come in are a self selecting bunch who probably are relatively right wing, then will we ever go back to our roots?